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IC (Not AC) - DC restrictions
Poll ended at Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:24 pm
I like the idea of adopting the DC restrictions 100%  100%  [ 17 ]
I think the IC rules should stay with the one design hull. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 17
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 Post subject: Adopting DC Rules - UK Feelings
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:24 pm 
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So now the dust has settled on the Worlds what are folks in the UK thinking on the subject of adopting the DC restrictions for the Spinnaker free canoe?
Fairly obvious what people like Andy and I think, but what about the rest of you voters? Colin N, you were there, and have been unusually low profile since, have you got any thoughts or are you still globe trotting somewhere?

Note that I personally don't think there's a case for the AC to change from the One design hull, so I haven't put that option on my little poll


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Hi Jim,

Yes I have been globe trotting a bit, Singapore and Hong Kong on the way home to the UK, but back about a week now, long enough to emerse myself in cold water, Moth sailing last Sunday, so back to reality now! I have withdrawl symptoms wanting my IC back from the container to get my normal IC sailing fix. I have no IC for the Tiger Trophy this weekend and am not on the pace enough to go in the Moth; after all Graham Vials is going! At the Dinghy Show I plan to order a new state of the art Moth, they are much easier to sail than my five year old 'prototype'. I tried the Bladerider in Oz in next to no wind but once flying it was a doddle to keep it up. Moth Worlds are in Weymouth this July. So in a new boat I may be sailing the Moth at the two opens clashing with the IC, Grafham and Weston.

My take on the future for Intrnational Canoe sailing is that the rest of the world have voted with their feet and apart from one or two Germans they have rejected the AC. There is a lot of buzz arround the DC and when the vote comes it is virtually certain the 50kg etc rules will become the New Rules IC, possibly in time for the 2009 Europa Cup in Sweden. At the Skippers Meeting in Melbourne in a straw pole everyone in the room, representing the top 40 IC sailors from nearly every nation wanted the rule change to happen. (May be a few were sleeping at the time!) I support it too. Any UK AC sailors who want serious international competition in the future will have to start racing New Rules ICs without spinakers. We lost the New York cup partly because in Australia they have gone on developing the IC boats, rigs and especially the sails. In the UK we have been distracted by the AC which has become purely a British canoe, not sailed elsewhere in the World and IC development has been static. The class has to move forward with the New Rules IC.

Boats like mine will become 'Classics'. As the building of New Rules ICs (DCs at present) may be slower in some countries than others (e.g. Sweden and Germany) I hope there will be some well supported racing continuing in the classic boats with a raft of trophies for first second and third in the classic boats to keep interest alive in the old IC until enough New Rule boats are built. However, I expect the 2008 UK Nationals will be the last when the DCs race as DCs not as New Rules ICs for the top prizes, National Championships, Europa Cup etc. This has to happen. and I fully support the change. Those like me will have a choice, go on racing our present boats as classics or get a New Rules IC (DC at present). I liked what I saw of Phil's boat but I would not want a deck that is not flat! At 65 I may decide to race as a classic, but will see how competition develops after the rules are changed.

I detected the AC sailors in Melbourne hankering after an 'AC DC' !! It is up to the existing AC sailors to decide what they want. Join in the international competition in the New Rules IC, or stick with the current AC rules for racing in only the UK. Alternatively, go for a spinaker on a 50Kg hull which could be sailed as an IC for future Worlds etc. Having rejected the AC as not for me, I have no interst in telling AC sailors what to do. I shall be Clasic IC racing till the change has settled down, if the osteoarthritis developing in my fingures allows, I might get someone to build me a New Rules IC. I can see advantages in the dagger board being less high out of the water than in my present boat where the climb out of the water after a capsize is becoming more of a challenge especially when it is cold in the winter months. Only the future will tell, 'today is the tomorrow we worried about yeaterday and all is well'. Right now I just want my boat back on the water, out of the container! It is to me clear the move to the DC becomming the New Rules IC is unstopable, a foregone conclusion. A development class will die if it is not developing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:35 pm 
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Hi Jim again,

I posted the reply above, spelling errors and all, in a rush just before dinner. One thing I would add. If I had my way I think when we are changing rules for the IC, we as a class should also drop the rule that requires foils to be able to be retracted from above the deck. This rule effectively rules out the IC ever being fitted with hydrofoils. Where Moths have flown other classes like the RS600FF are starting to follow. In a few years time sailing high performance boats on hydrofoils may become comon place. Why retain a rule that would prevent the IC going down this route which was the saviour of the Moth Class? Moths looked a bit morribund in 2002, then everyone was bold enough to adopt radical change and by 2007 there were 63 boats at the Worlds from 14 nations. This year over 80 are expected at the Worlds including a rejuvinated fleet from the USA where International Moth sailing had all but died out. (I see during his absence in Melbourne while picking up the Silver Medal for IC sailing, Bill Beaver has been elected the new secretary of the USA Int Moth Class! He is now trying to find out what is expected of him! He sails a Hungry Beaver design foiling Moth.) Let's keep all options open if the IC wants to stay at the forefront of sailing innovation. The wand mechanisms to control ride height have moved on so much that rapid fore/aft weight adjustment is getting less necessary. Foiling from a sliding seat is probably technically possible. Why not?

Once a development class moves on it can take very little time for the new rules to become widely adopted. Virtually nobody turns up at Moth events any more with a non-hydrofoil boat (5 out of 63 at the last Worlds) yet it is just five years since my actual boat 'White Knucle Express', then owned by Rohan Veal, started everything off as the first and only foiling boat in the 2003 Moth Worlds in France. In three years time I am expecting the IC world to have changed to a fast modern 50 Kg boat. Old rule boats will either be converted to ACs or left to become a thing of the past. What I do not yet know is if the same will apply to aging owners of the boats! We shall see.

If others have a different take on the future, pitch in. I am happy if this provokes alternative views. Five years ago I was telling my Moth chums we have to embrace change, now is the time for the IC to move on too. I may get left behind in the rush!


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 Post subject: No need ju jump on the latest bandwagon
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:16 am 
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The intent of the rule to mandate that foils be mounted from the top is INTENDED to preclude foiling IC's. Are we so insecure as a class about what we are that we need to jump on every latest fad. First asymmetric spinnakers and now foils! Enough already! If I want to foil I will get a Moth. I think that they are perfectly suited to foiling. With the expected adoption of the Appendix 4 as the IC of the future, I am not worried that the class will be "Left Behind".

I think that the IC is a great package that offers an exceptional ride. For me personally, when I first started sailing IC's, the fact that it was the fastest singlehander was great, but it was not the reason that I bought my first boat (& built three more since). After the introduction of the AC, I was justifiably concerned about the fragmentation of the class. While I flirted with the idea of building or converting to AC, there was little interest by the other active sailors in my area.

I agree with Hayden's thoughts in the Ausi Forum. An IC might not be the fastest singlehander anymore, but the ride at the end of the seat is exceptional, and to quote Steve Clark, if you like IC's, you will really like the lighter version. It is a better breed of cat



John K
USA-244


Last edited by jkells on Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Foils...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:02 am 
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My own feeling is that if the time comes when we need foils we can always review things. Those of us who aren't so young-at-heart as you Colin possibly have less enthusiasm for the launching techniques currently required by foilers... I've spent enough years carrying 50kg boats into the water on their sides, and that was with a healthy young driver to carry the heavy end.

The lesson from the C Class this summer that foils aren't a surefire way to performance was interesting... We know they work like crazy in a Moth, we also know that the same technology doesn't work in a 35 foot Catamaran. Where are we?

I also worry about strengths... I spent many years in a boat that was poor in light airs and great in a breeze. The IC is a bit more balanced, and the DC with luck may be a bit more so. A 50kg foiler will be even more of a low speed dog and breeze wonder... I used to think that the good times made up for the bad... Nowadays I'm not so sure... Comes of sailing inland I guess!

On the other hand the lady or gentlemen who comes up with a foil installation that can be managed under our current rules will have made another big step! We don't ban foils per se, we just mandate that they are much easier to live with for those who are unenthused by wading. Maybe that's not a bad thing...

The only other comment I'd make is changing rules is not development. Development can only happen if rules are static. Classes can get in a rule change frenzy, which maybe leaves them with a fleet in which almost no boats are in the same basic configuration, so Champs results are almost decided by the number of updates you've hacked onto your boat the previous winter... It can get exceeding tedious if, having got your boat into a half sorted state, the damn goalposts are changed again... Sometimes of course change is necessary. For the IC I think that is now. The proposal appears to be addressing the problem the IC has had in enthusing folk - but we do need to help out the other IC nations...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:26 am 
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jkells wrote:
The intent of the rule to mandate that foils be mounted from the top is INTENDED to preclude foiling IC's.

John K
USA-244


The intention, as I understand it, is not to preclude foiling ICs per se. It is to preclude ICs that are difficult to launch (like the current foiling moth). Look at it as an interesting design problem.

Mal.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:14 pm 
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I have to say that I think you're right Colin. There is no way that technological change can be bottled up. The 14s went to full foiling boats but they proved too difficult and twitchy. Moth experience and wand design might tempt them back for another bite at this cherry.
The trapeze was seen as too radical and was banned for a while. Classes have tried to resist the lure of carbon but it gains new converts yearly, We added the A sail to much huffing and puffing and I'm sure as eggs that someone will build a kite DC within 5 years. Once foiling is mainstream we may have no choice but just now its too expensive/delicate and OK difficult for me. I would not be surprised to find the class arguing over this in 5-10 yrs. There is real merit in letting other classes develop the expertise and hardware and saving our members the expense and uncertainty at the moment.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:50 pm 
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alanpowell wrote:
Once foiling is mainstream we may have no choice but just now its too expensive/delicate and OK difficult for me. I would not be surprised to find the class arguing over this in 5-10 yrs. There is real merit in letting other classes develop the expertise and hardware and saving our members the expense and uncertainty at the moment.


I've sailed a foiling moth (not in anger) and raced against several foilers both in my IC and DC and I don't see foils as the development path that must be followed. A foiling Moth is bloody quick, but a Moth in sub foiling winds is incredibly slow. I've also noticed that the two foilers I race against (1 is one of those OD BladeRiders) is that they have rubbish upwind angles - where the IC has a high pointing angle with great speed. In fact, in 2 of my last 4 races against the Moths it is upwind VMG where I've been able to reel them in (yes, they destroy me off the wind). I'm not sure that I'd want to compromise some of the performance characteristics of an IC(DC) for more straight line speed. And I also know that I don't want to be walking a 17ft long boat out to chest deep water to launch and recover - I'd have to look at what clubs I could launch from. Plus those foils aren't very cheap. The other thing you see in Moths at the moment is how critical helm weight is, the IC has always evened the field with weight allowing lightweights like me to compete evenly with the big guys. Moths are showing us that it is the lighter guys who are winning.
My feelings may change on foils, but at the moment there are more Cons than Pro's for me to consider going down that path

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IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
2008 IC Worlds DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5_PUxqP0ssg

Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:51 pm 
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Like Colin I sail both canoe and moth. I see them as separate entities with separate benefits. My views differ from Colin although I do respect his opinion.

Firstly I agree with everthing Christian has said about performance. I have similar experience racing the DC against our club moth fleet last year. And I like the way the DC is so respnsive and pleasant to sail in even very light winds.

Secondly I strongly push the handling issue. It is difficult to launch a moth off a beach with onshore wind and waves, dragging it out capsizing, loading th efoils, dragging it out again because it washed back to shallow water while you were doing it, righting it and then getting down to sailing, It is worse on a rocky shore or ramp. This all would be doubly difficult with a foil boat nearly double the weight and 6ft longer.

I think there is a place for foil boats and at present the moth satisfies 100% of that market.

There is a place for big slow boats with lead ballast and most of the sailing community do that,

AND there is still a place for long skinny very high performance single handers which are relativly easy to handle on and off the water and which are a delight to sail in all conditions.

I do not think that the DC needs foils (or lead) or any other changes in basic concept to make it better. We have a unique nich market and should not try to take on someone else's .

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:20 pm 
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Thanks Alan. After flying the kite about having a rule change that would not stop a foiling Canoe being developed I have to say I think Jim Champ and John Kells made some pretty convincing counter arguments! Launching a 50 Kg boat on its side would be a pain (the Velociraptor design of Moth I ordered at the Dinghy Show on Saturday as customer No 1 for this new design is just over half that all up weight, with a 7.75 Kg hull, less than the weight of an IC seat!). Development in development class boats will go on, but the time is I guess not right for the idea of a foiling IC. There are too many other changes going on in the class right now. Rather than make a rule change now that would make the development possible, it is a safer way forward to leave the rule about retracting the foils from above the deck as it is till the class actively decides it wants to explore the foiling option (if ever). I deliberately use the word 'safer' as we should avoid what happened in Moths. With the wisdom of hindsight, the adoption of foils has done great things for that class but five years ago when the first John Illett Moths came out with hydrofoils the development was seen as very controversial. Particularly in Australia where the inovation started, there were those who wanted to ban the development. They could not do so as the Moth Class rules at the time had nothing in them to prevent a boat with hydrofoils still measuring as a Moth, hence, like it or not, the new foiling boats were legal. In the IC the same could not happen with the rules as they are now, so if ever the class wanted to go down that route there would have to be a deliberate decision to do so and thus to change the rule (as at present with the reduction to 50 kg etc). I guess I was being too libertarian in the kite I was flying.

I still think that once foiling boats catch on the development will become attractive to Canoe sailors in a few years time. I learned at the Dinghy Show that the foiling RS600 is now supported by the LDC manufacturers of the class, so the development is no longer viewed as a maverick add on to an otherwise successful class. Even after the IC rules are changed will the thrill seeking young sailors who are too heavy for the Moth be attracted to the new rules IC or the RS600ff which is proving to be flying as fast as the Moth? One very interesting thing is happening in the Moth class, significant numbers of ex-champions from the past like John Claridge, Roger Angell, Toby Collier, and even our own Peter Conway who is even less in the first flush of youth than me are back in the class in foilers, along with some American Moth sailors who last sailed the boat over 30 years ago. The informal 'Grand Masters' division in the 2008 Worlds will no longer be just me, my mate Alan and two sailors from Japan! There is a huge appetite for this new flying thrill out there (may be even an element of if old Colin who we used to beat can still do it, then surely we can too!). Si Payne's lecture at the Dinghy Show on foiling was packed out, the best attended at the show. So I agree with you Alan, exciting developments cannot be put back in the box and I predict in the IC fleet we will be discussing foling in a few years time and then voting for another rule change which for now would be premature. This is how I now think as I haul down my kite! Will my prophecy come true?

I got this far writing this before reading the postings by Phil and Christian. As you will see I have shifted my view to something much more like theirs! That's what happens when you fly kites or float ideas and then listen to the views of others! Another match box quote for Christian: 'He who never made a mistake never made anything!'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Colin Newman wrote:
the foiling RS600 is now supported by the LDC manufacturers of the class, so the development is no longer viewed as a maverick add on to an otherwise successful class.

I'm pretty sure the vanilla 600 has stopped selling, so RS have nothing to lose realy...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:44 am 
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Not trying to be anti-foils here (just Pro IC (DC)), but I have another reason on why IC's don't need foils yet. 3 races, 3 wins over the hydrofoil Moths in the sub 8 knot AIR Regatta. When the wind is light, the Moths are dog slow until they foil.

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IC Promo DVD: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdo4p90jHo
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Australian IC Website: http://www.internationalcanoe.yachting.org.au


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 Post subject: Weight reduction effects
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:46 am 
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Doing my first race in 257 post weight reduction yesterday in F2ish conditions my regular (not IC) opposition reckoned that the downwind speed was very noticeably improved. I don't know what the boat weight is now, or what it was before (other than rumoured to be well over minimum), and I've been noticeably slow deep and square at IC opens, but I would guess, judging by how different the boat feels heaving round the beach, that I lost something towards 25kg (a lump of that in seat and carriage).
The other noticeable difference is that the boat is a lot less stable when unoccupied - I can no longer launch the boat and pull her onto a jetty unoccupied unless I pull the seat all the way out on one side to act as an outrigger. She seems to be floating with the stern clear of the water. I treated myself to a lightweight alloy trolley as well (thanks to Phil Robin for the headsup on that) and between the two weight reductions the off water experience is transformed:-))


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 Post subject: Re: Adopting DC Rules - UK Feelings
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:27 am 
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I need to state that I believe you're correct Colin. Its absolutely impossible that innovative switch can be contained. The 14s went to full thwarting vessels yet they demonstrated excessively troublesome and skittish. Moth experience and wand configuration may entice them back for another chomp at this cherry.

The trapeze was viewed as excessively radical and was restricted for some time. Classes have endeavored to oppose the bait of carbon yet it increases new proselytes yearly, We added the A sail too much huffing and puffing and I'm certain as eggs that somebody will manufacture a kite DC inside 5 years. When thwarting is standard we may have no way out however a little while ago its excessively costly/fragile and alright troublesome for me. I would not be astounded to discover the class contending over this in 5-10 yrs. There is genuine legitimacy in giving different classes a chance to build up the aptitude and equipment and sparing our individuals the cost and vulnerability right now.

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