NEW RULES FOR ACs

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petermclaren
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Location: Scotland, United Kingdom

NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by petermclaren » Sun May 05, 2013 9:26 am

"No-one is going to build another new Nethercot hull AC. Therefore it is time for ACs to allow 2009 Rules hulls".

Discuss.

Dreamcatcher
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by Dreamcatcher » Sun May 05, 2013 8:52 pm

I've got a well written article by Robin Wood re development of ACs. Will send it to Andy to put in the next copy of IC bulletin. Should make some interesting discussions at he Europeans!

steveb
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by steveb » Tue May 07, 2013 8:18 am

Gaz,

When is next IC Mag out. Seems to me sooner discussions start re 2009 rule AC s the better so that

substantial numbers of current AC owners know where they stand for the future and can plan ahead.

Steve 310 AC

Dreamcatcher
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by Dreamcatcher » Thu May 09, 2013 9:23 pm

Steve
I think that Andy is e mailing them out in the near future.
See you on Sat

petermclaren
Posts: 109
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Location: Scotland, United Kingdom

Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by petermclaren » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:53 pm

Gareth & Andy,

When is the article on development of ACs coming out? Would be very helpful to have it before Europa Cup.

Peter

Steve Clark
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by Steve Clark » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:46 pm

Please, everyone who wants to consider this idea, sail a new rules boat in force 5 and see if you aren't satisfied with the performance.
If you keep an open mind about not setting a spinnaker, you may find the boat is fast enough and challenging enough to keep you amused without adding 20m^2 of light sails.
I was hoping that the class might move back together instead of drifting further apart.
SHC
Beatings will continue until morale improves

Alistair
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by Alistair » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:35 pm

Hi Steve
I would in principle be inclined to agree, but I think its quite a different dinghy sailing scene here in the UK. There are quite a number of handicap events aimed at asymmetric rigged boats, many clubs run separate starts in club racing and a fair number of times we go sailing its not that windy, we have a real mix of weather. I get the feeling that people here will see that they are losing something by going to a two sail boat from a three sail boat. I never saw the attraction of 3 sails on a single handed boat so never went down that route, and prob never will. I have sailed two handed asymmetric boats and its great fun, but for me the two sails on the canoe and especially the new rules boats are great, an extra sail I think is too much. Having said that I would rather see new rules boats with asymmetics (that can be taken off for international events) than not, I think its the way forward for the UK fleet and will get us all back (in time) to being in the same hull rules. There are a fair number of other classes that run with or without spinnakers, in fact at the moment its more confusing (to outsiders) that its only the old rules boats that have them.
Alistair

Tony
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by Tony » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:09 pm

I am sure that the natural progression within the class will be towards a new rules AC. If marketed and considered carefully this progression could give the class a real lift without effecting the value and worth of the older AC boats. For a start it will take years for these new boats to get a foothold by which time most older AC’s will have found a certain market value. Understanding the market that the Canoe has traditionally attracted is critical if the class is to see significant growth again. Removing confusing elements from the website and setting out a clearly defined class stall and mission statement is essential if we are to attract new boat owners. What potential newcomers see right now on the website and around the class generally is in my opinion exactly what will put them off joining the class. A new canoe is a major investment and people will want to be sure that they are buying into something truly organised and sustainable. It’s not good enough to simply make a decision based on what a few people already within the class would like to see.

Tony

steveb
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by steveb » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:47 pm

The current AC is a very manageable boat in the wide cross section of winds that we experience in the UK and provides
plenty of challenges and thrills.

The DC is on the limit in higher wind strengths as a craft alone, without even considering the capability of the helm.

A kite on a DC in F4-5 would push the boundary level of handling outside the vast majority of players ...and, vast in players we are not!

The substantial success of the AC has encouraged a solid fleet and shows continued investment whether it be in new sail design, foils, carriages/seats or upgrades etc.

Current activity has been down over the last few years coinciding with a recession and less venue options and events leaving a latent
and substantial AC fleet with high quality, valuable and competitive craft waiting in the wings to emerge either with current or new owners when the conditions are right.

It is essential to look after what we have and not leave a trail of confusion for potential newcomers or for that matter existing owners.

Steve AC310

jimc
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by jimc » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:03 pm

Because I have no intention of ever sailing an AC I was trying not to comment, but I do suggest you think very hard about what any rule change would be aiming to achieve. I think the worst reason for any rule change is the one I heard advanced in one of my previous classes - "because we can'.

I think the reasons for the open rule in the IC were pretty clear - the AC had not found global popularity, I suspect partly because of the lack of Rob Michaels in other Canoe sailing countries, but the heavy weight and one design hull were starting to look very out of place in a true development class.

I suggest that it would be extraordinarily unlikely that an open rule asymmettric boat would have anything like the same hull shape as a current IC because the tasks required are really rather different: bearing in mind the brute horsepower available downwind it might even beneft from a wider waterline and consequent better aspect ratio on the hull lifting surface (wild guess!), so there would be no parallells in development.

It seems to me that the one-design hull continues to serve the AC platform well, and even the fact that the one design hull is maybe a bit speed limited may have its benefits in making for a more manageable platform. It ought to be possible to build a boat that had the legs of a 49er offwind, and just how many people could sail that without disappearing down the back of every wave? Not I, that's for sure. I would have wanted to wait a bit longer before deciding that no more OD AC hulls will be built. Its not that long since the last one was built is it? In any case there's nothing like a little bit of uncertainty to discourage folk from building new boats, and this sort of rumblng certainly provides that.

SteveC
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by SteveC » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:46 am

Well its good to see we are now starting to talk about this rather than just being in denial which the class has been for the last few years.

We have to adapt and change or the class will not survive. The IC fleet is growing now, the AC's are not. We have to talk about this openly without feeling we are going to upset anyone. We have a confused message because we don't know what we are doing or have a coherent plan for the AC and this is great opportunity to have an open debate and take a good hard look at where we are going.

There will be experiments with kites on the new rules boats, it's already happening in Germany and will be in the UK in the next few months. What we should do is see if it works, is it a marketable product and how do we create a working framework with new and old boats - do we run events with a PY for example on a sausage /triangle course. What we need to do now is have a consensus of how we move this forward with the class controlling the development so that we don't end up with something (totally) unmanageable.

Tony is right, this will take a couple of years to get right before the rest of the fleet decide what to do but it must happen and we need a proper policy to say what we are intending.

We shouldn't forget our primary USP in dinghy sailing - we have to be the fastest single handed monohull in the world, that's what impresses people about the canoe - without that I'm afraid we seen as a quirky canoe shaped thing with an old fashioned slidey thing bit in the middle sailed by middle aged blokes. We are now the fastest with two sails perhaps we should be re-gain our crown with three.

The new rules boats does not need nor should it have a large kite which will make the handling issues easier to deal with and this should be strictly controlled in my view.

I sail my IC in handicap races at out club on conventional courses (triangle) on my own and frankly it gets pretty boring from a competing point of view lapping lasers, solos, europes etc although exciting and I enjoy sailing the boat on that type of course. All the best competition is in the asymmetric fleet and I get stuffed on handicap unless its blowing over 12 knots where we can hold our own and if we have reaches as well I can often finish in front of the AC's if the course is right. Having an asymmetric version would allow me to sail with the much bigger fleet on the asymmetric course and with the AC's and I would probably only need to use the kite up to a F4 anyway. In a F5 the IC goes absolutely ballistic and I'm not sure a kite would be needed or welcome but who knows. At opens I would currently sail in IC mode.
Steve Clarke (UK)
GBR338 "Money4Nuffin

Colin Newman
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by Colin Newman » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:46 pm

Steve says 'we have to be the fastest single-handed Mono-hull in the world'. We are with two sails, but not with one! The International Moth PY of 600 will be hard to beat whatever we do with the IC!

At my home club Draycote, I have been sailing Canoes and Moths for over 25 years. Somehow, although the IC, and especially my new one attracts a lot of interest, I have never managed to attract anyone else into sailing the boat. However, my Moth experience has resulted in growth in the fleet from just me to now seven boats in the club, mostly young guys but two in their 40ties. The Moth clearly has a 'cool' image that appeals to the young. We need to promote the IC as offering something distinctive from the flying Moth, new ones of which cost almost as much as a new IC. One advantage of the IC is it is still worth racing in winds less than 8 mph when the Moth is no faster than a Topper (before it gets flying). It can also compete in round the cans racing and is versatile in not needing to race windward/leeward.

If we try to 'sell' the IC or AC on speed alone we are never going to outshine boats with hydrofoils which, like the AC, race windward/leeward. The bought 'off the peg' Musto Skiff seems to have attracted those who want asymmetric sailing at least as far as Draycote is concerned but they are no match up against a foiling Moth on a windward/leeward course. As the Musto Skiff (and RS 700) has a PY lower than the AC, there could be a case for trying to develop the AC into a faster boat but I still think any Canoe hull is never going to be the best base for an asymmetric boat. The Musto Skiff guys can get so much further aft off wind than is possible with a sliding seat.

My main point is to suggest that when promoting the Canoe in any form we need to think what other boats we are competing against for numbers of sailors. We then need to identify the niche in the market we are trying to fill and then emphasise the strengths of the Canoe that meet this niche. It may not be quite the mass marketing message we want but in my view the IC is 'the best, challenging, high performance single-hander for the older man'!

At Draycote I am a lone IC trying to get others interested from a fleet of over 30 Solos and even more Lasers both of whom get turn outs for club, class racing in the teens most Wednesdays and Sundays. Mates in the club see me as quite a maverick wanting to sail the IC in PY handicap races. I point out that at just a bit over ten stone I am too light for a Laser or even a Solo once the wind is up. I am more interested is sailing fast challenging boats than class racing the same guys week in and week out where a predictable 'pecking order' soon gets established.

Colin

BobC
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Re: NEW RULES FOR ACs

Post by BobC » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:30 am

This jjust posted under the thread of "Correctors". Thought I'd pop it here too...


My 4-pence worth...

Comment 1./ If you bugger about with the weight of the AC, you will effectively make 95% of the hulls obsolete and worthless, and kill the class. There seems no sense in this to me. Leave the hull alone.

Comment 2./ If you go the "box rule" route with the AC too, you will still end-up with 2 classes, as the hull shape requirements will be different with a kite than it will be without. and you will obsolete all the current ACs. Not a good plan IMHO.

Comment 3./ Both the current AC and IC suffer from a lack of upwind rag, and hence are both aimed at the lighter-weight person (look around the fleet. Most are lightweight men in their 40s-60s weighing 9-12 stone). Because both boats are aimed at the same person, you often see people having to make the choice of which to have/sail. So as the IC fleet has grown in the last 2 years, it has been at the expense of the AC fleet.

If you increased the white sail area on the AC by about 2sq.m (and allow the jib to be set from the stem), and reduced the kite size slightly to make it a fractional hoist, you would have a great boat for 11-14 stone people, and a boat which is more of an "club all-round performer". All that people would need to do to achieve this is to extend the mast by about a foot and get some new sails made.

So turning the AC into a 12sq.m Canoe, would give you 2 classes that appeal to 2 different demographics. Surely this has to make more sense than mucking about with hull weights and making hulls obsolete.

Comments appreciated...

Bob
AC-GBR271

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