UK Boats in build

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SteveC
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:32 pm
Location: United Kingdom

UK Boats in build

Post by SteveC » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:48 am

I suggest we use this topic as a means of keeping track of the new boats being built in the UK for the 2011 Worlds. I think there are currently five as follows. Perhaps the builders can give us a regular update on progress for the regular readers of the forum and generate some interest.

The current suspects are;

Ian McPherson - Bird on a wire/Secondstring derivative plywood kit for stitch and glue build method.
John Ellis - his own design and super skinny according to reports from our spies. According to one source, "if skinny is fast, this boat will be very fast".
Colin Brown - Morrison hull with revised deck layout
Alistair Warren - Dragonfly (Monkey 2) design based on hard chines as before and flatish panels
Steve Clarke - Morrison 2 design with changes to the chines and slightly wider at deck level and a flatish deck.
Steve Clarke (UK)
GBR338 "Money4Nuffin

colinbrown
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:22 pm

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by colinbrown » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:44 pm

My Morrison is taking shape slowly. Mainly held up by the very cold weather for the last 4 weeks. This is uncommon for even us northerners. Most nights to -10 and days not reaching Zero. Epoxy a little stiff in the pot ! Will introduce some heaters after Xmas if the weather remains cold. However all materials now on order or delivered and most " bit" in kit form awaiting some glue.
Looking at the comments above my spy actually said of Johns new IC " if thin is fast, then he has a lot of it , a very fast canoe in the making"

jimc
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Re: UK Boats in build

Post by jimc » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:20 am

colinbrown wrote: Mainly held up by the very cold weather for the last 4 weeks.
You're not joking! I outsourced getting the paint on my modification of 257 because I could see no prospect of getting anywhere I might be able to get the paint on up to temperature, and even the shop I offloaded the job too is having trouble...

SteveC
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:32 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by SteveC » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:58 am

Morrison 2 progress.......I am still at the moulding stage and am making a male plug over which the boat will be built upside down.

The plug is basically a load of frames made to the inside dimensions of the hull minus the thickness of a sheet of ply. It was a bit tricky getting the ply to follow the shape of the frames until I discovered Flexiply which is brilliant stuff, 4mm and bends very easily. You do get a bity of sag between the frames but these can be easily faired with flexible woodfiller. I retrospect I should have used cedar strips like the professionals use but ply is a lot cheaper and easier to come by I suspect. Hoping to sheeve the mould with a glass and epoxy layer to give a good hard suface to work off and airtight to vacuum down onto over Christmas. All materials bought for the hull now but in a much more basic form than Colin (epoxy, carbon and foam) and will then start making the hull but with temperatures forecast to drop to -15oC this weekend that's looking doubtful.

I have created some space in the gallery now and will populate it with images of boats in progress - please send me images when you can chaps. Thanks to Ian McPherson who has compiled a very impressive picture library of boats from around the world which are gradully being uploaded to the gallery at http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/gallery/index.php?cat=7
Steve Clarke (UK)
GBR338 "Money4Nuffin

Andy P
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Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:31 pm

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by Andy P » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:45 pm

Colin Brown is busy trimming the moulding edges, and sticking bulkheads in on the Morrison IC.

Alastair's mould is coming along nicely - the ply skins are on, some fairing and glass skinning to do.

Mould construction:
11 frames of MDF, spiled through a fullsize plotting from Alistair's CAD design. ( and 20mm undersize of the finished hull).
Battens of 12mm western red cedar, 3mm of gaboon ply that bends nice and fair. 2 x 200g/m² glass in epoxy, + a couple of layers of resin + glassbubbles. This then gets a rough sanding with 40grit paper + belt sander and then longboard. Apply parceltape and lots of wax - done!
The Dragonfly design is double chined with fairly flat even curved bottom panel which is ideal for bending the ply.
The gunwale line is basically two straight lines, with a kink at the back of the foredeck.
The aft end of the boat is a chopped V-transom, rather than the traditional canoe stern.

photos here http://www.mediafire.com/?t538zjvhj2hdd

cc284
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Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:10 pm

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by cc284 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:09 pm

It will be interesting to see at the Worlds next year if the transom shape has any real impact on results - even if it's just added stability when things get wild!

Maybe one for Rob - Pre the current rules, was there anything in the rule book preventing these chopped transoms? How do the Razorback and Ellis hull exploit the past tollerances - fat or thin?
GBR 284 (AC) - 'Outlaw'

BobC
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Re: UK Boats in build

Post by BobC » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:22 am

That Dragonfly hull isn't going to take much to get planing.
AC-GBR271

Alistair
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by Alistair » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:28 pm

Dragonfly will be quite different than Monkey (hence its not Monkey 2). Have made a start in the shed on the other bits, but its been a little cold so have just done a few tubes that I need. In the new year I will be doing the boom and the mast then putting together some laser cut panels to make pattern work for seat and carriage. Cut panels waiting on the bench so hope they fit together!! Have ordered my sails as well. Need to decide on fittings, but hope to be at the London boat show to have a look and finally decide what to go for.
Happy building
Alistair

Steve Clark
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Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:26 pm

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by Steve Clark » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:37 pm

Not in the UK, so not relevant, or even up to the standard of excellence.... but 5 more sheets of plywood have been fed to the Laser Cutter and these will turn into new boats for David and Me.
These are certainly upside down, carbon composite decks on plywood hulls.
There are some fun ideas we are eager to try out.
Pictures whenever it looks like something worth sharing.
SHC
Beatings will continue until morale improves

SteveC
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by SteveC » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:18 am

A question for the experts.. with a male mould is it best to apply the first inside carbon skin and vacuum on or can you apply the foam at the same time. I suspect it will be fidly and messy putting on the foam but presumably will reduce the amount of epoxy required. Suggestions please.
Steve Clarke (UK)
GBR338 "Money4Nuffin

Steve Clark
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:26 pm

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by Steve Clark » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:56 pm

I have done it both ways, there are compelling arguments on all sides.
I haven't noticed a big difference in the weight or the part quality, so suggest it is mostly a question of how much manpower you have to do the laminates and how good are they. If you don't have the horses, take the extra steps.
SHC
Beatings will continue until morale improves

Andy P
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Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:31 pm

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by Andy P » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:08 pm

SteveC wrote:A question for the experts.. with a male mould is it best to apply the first inside carbon skin and vacuum on or can you apply the foam at the same time. I suspect it will be fidly and messy putting on the foam but presumably will reduce the amount of epoxy required. Suggestions please.
Doing it on my own ( boat building that is ), and working at a speed ( resin and my speed ) that I can do a laminating or bonding job in the morning, - (which can go on till 2 ) and be able to turn off the pump early evening, I can only do it separately.
Also this stops the foam wandering about and creasing the carbon.
I usually do the foam in two stages as well - the sides first, foam edges trimmed up, then the bottom.
Alistairs will be 3 stages!

Flat panels I do both sides at once, vacced in a bag, relying on the flatness of the foam and the table the bag rests on. ie not vacced down onto the table.

Alistair
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by Alistair » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:53 am

Hi
When I did Monkey I laminated and bagged for: 1. the first skin, 2. the bottom foam panels, 3. the side foam panels and 4. the final skin, I had not done much wet laminating, and definatly not of that size before and would not have wanted to do it in less steps. I think in wet laminating the weight of the part is very much down to the skill of the laminator, will you pre wet the cloth or put it on the mould then wet it out? what do others do? I put the cloth on the mould then wet it out and found that the near vertical sides a pain in the ass to wet out. When I put the foam down I filled the surface of the foam with a balloons mixture and spread some ballloons mixture on the first skin using a toothed spreader, this seemed to work well, is it how others do it?
Alistair

SteveC
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Location: United Kingdom

Re: UK Boats in build

Post by SteveC » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:40 pm

Steve - only a one horse town so better do it in stages as I just sheeved the mould with glass and it took 3 hours. I can see Andy's point about the foam moving especially once you have messed about putting breather and the bag together. Some kind of clip system would be useful there I think to hold the foam in place.

Alistairs point about when to apply the epoxy, I've always wet the surface first and then applied the material but this can be a real pain getting the weave lying down properly so I tried placing the cloth down first this time wetting a few areas to hold it on the mould and then wetting the matrial moving along the weave finally squeezing the excess out with a roller. I am assuming enough epoxy will get through the cloth and getting onto the mould. With foam I always find you need to wet the foam first otherwise it is too dry if trying to wet it through the carbon cloth - I never use glass bubbles unless that is to prepare a flat surface which you then sand down before applying the final layer of carbon.
Steve Clarke (UK)
GBR338 "Money4Nuffin

Steve Clark
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Re: UK Boats in build

Post by Steve Clark » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:33 pm

I don't want to stand around declaiming that I know all the answers, particularly here where there are many whose work is commonly regarded as superior to mine, but I have built a few things that were OK, so a tip or two. I have no problem co-curing the outside skin, the core and the inside skin. But for most people who haven't been building this stuff for years, it is better to break it into smaller steps.

Composites "look" like they are seem less, but they really are not. The it is almost always useful to make the pieces small enough top be handled by one person. This means cutting lots of pieces instead of pulling 5 meters of cloth off the roll. Particular areas that prosper from multiple bits are the corners, this way you don't have to fight yourself trying to move wet sticky cloth. It also means breaking the process into more steps than you think it would normally take. I would follow Andy's lead on this.

At Vanguard, we wet out most of our fabric outside the mold on a table. This was a good way to assure that we had all the fiber wet without putting any extra into the mold. It works pretty well once you get the knack of it, particularly for the inside skin of a cored laminate when it always feels like you are pouring resin into the core. It also make the fiber sticky before trying to put it on the vertical sides of the mold.

If you don't want to do that, it is often fairly reasonable to fold the topside piece back onto the bottom and wet it out there, and then flop it down into place a squeegee to your heart's content.

Filling the nooks and crannies of the core with a mix of resin and balloons is pretty common and seems to be a pretty good practice. As far as clips go, if you are not doing the core and outside laminate in one shot, all sorts of things like tape, thumb tacks, hot melt glue and staples can be deployed to keep things under control. But the best advice is probably not to rush it, take more steps.
Enjoy every sandwich
SHC
Beatings will continue until morale improves

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